Username Post: DCWV Papers Are Acid-Free        (Topic#1472439)
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Dear Customers,

I have received inquiries regarding our papers and want to ensure you that all DCWV paper products are acid-free and lignin-free. We continuously test and sample our papers for acid free pH levels to ensure that we are offering products that meet the acid-free requirements for archiving your memories in craft projects. Our testing is conducted using digital pH monitors as well as independent testing facilities. Although there are some inconsistencies in the standards that are required to claim acid-free or archival-safe, our products continue to meet the guidelines available. After an extensive study on pH levels and their effects on paper, we require that all of our paper products have a pH range between 6.5 and 8.5 and a lignin content of less than 1%. This range falls between The Library of Congress standards (7.5 to 10) and the CK/OK standards (6.5 to 8).

One of the best reports that I have read on acid-free standards is from HP. This report gives their findings on the current guidelines and also mentions scrapbooking and acid-free test pens specifically and provides some great insight. Please see below for their comments on pH test pens. For the full report, please visit: www.hp.com/sbso/product/supplies /paper/images/acid_lign...

“Numerous tests by HP concluded that the most commonly available ‘pH test pens’ yielded conflicting results depending on the brand of the test pen. These tests also gave misleading information such as the indication that some coated papers contained acid when in fact they did not. If archivability standards were better defined and applied, consumers would only need to refer to the manufacturer’s specifications and not rely on third party suppliers.”

You may want to contact your pen manufacturer to obtain their pen specifications.

As one of the largest paper manufacturers in the craft industry, we consider the archival qualities of our papers and your crafts to be our highest priority. We ensure our paper products are acid-free and lignin-free.

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments.

Thank you,

Jeremy Smith
Vice President of Sales
DCWV INC.
[email protected]


 
Amigosa
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Amigosa
In response to Jeremysmith

Thank you for posting this!


 
Here Kitty
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Here Kitty
In response to Amigosa

I figured it was a problem with the pens!


 
ShaylaCreations
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In response to Here Kitty

I am so happy, I was hoping it was another problem. Thank you!


 
tinacome
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In response to ShaylaCreations

I guessed the pens were to blame as well. Just not that accurate it seems!


 
Lydia S
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In response to ShaylaCreations

Thanks so much for the update!


 
CaughtULokN2
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In response to Lydia S

Thank you so much for the information.
Thank you for taking the time to post on our forum Mr. Smith. It really shows that DCWV cares!


 
Bev1
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  • Bev1 on 07-22-08 03:29 PM
In response to CaughtULokN2

Thank you so much. As you know, our pages are important to us and DCWV are among the best out there!Thanks you for this information.


 
scrappinmylife
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In response to Bev1

That's cool 2 hear!


 
annoniemous
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In response to scrappinmylife

You know, that DCWV would send someone over here to post this really impresses me-- although I was almost 100% positive that DCVW papers were acid-free, just because I they are so wildly popular that if anyone had noticed that they weren't acid free, the company would have received so many complaints that they would have had to change their ways!

Okay, that's one incomprehensible sentence...


 
Yosemite
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In response to Jeremysmith

Thank you so much !!!!


 
Babylou
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In response to annoniemous

Thank you for taking the time to share this with us! That is customer service!


 
Prettylolo
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In response to Babylou

that's a relief cause i DCWV


 
riverroadrn
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In response to Babylou

Dear Jeremy, THANKS for taking the time to post this. DCWV really cares! susan a


 
animemama
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animemama
In response to riverroadrn

ok, well, that's interesting. I'll have to contact the manufacturer of my pen (I have a Lineco pen, which is marketed to museums, libraries, etc.) to find out at what pH level it tests acidic - it might be that anything below 7.0 or in that area will test acidic. My Lineco pH pen has always been one of my most trusted tools, and this particular paper (DCWV neutral stack) is the only paper that's supposed to be acid-free that has ever tested acidic with it.

ETA: From an archival supplies website (not allowed to link here; PM me if you want the link), product info for Lineco pH testing Pen: "The chlorophenol red indicator solution in the pen will turn purple on any paper with a pH of 6.8 and above. A clear or yellow color indicates the material is probably unsuitable for conservation purposes. Paper can be respectably long lived if is pH is as low as 6.0, especially if is well made and carefully used and stored. In order to last for centuries in today's polluted air, it must have an alkaline reserve and this usually means a pH of 7.0 or greater."
So if the DCWV paper is as low as 6.5, as Jeremy says, it will still last pretty well but will test as acidic with my particular pen. Note: I didn't test the colored, coated surface; I tore the cardstock to expose the white core and tested that, so color, coating, exposure to skin acids, etc. had no bearing on the results.

E(again!)TA: Given this information, I'm comfortable with returning my DCWV neutral cardstock to my scrapbook stash. Which I'm happy about because I love the colors.


Edited by animemama on 07-22-08 04:55 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.


 
beebuzz
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In response to animemama

hmmmm..

My pH pen has a scale on it, at 6.5, the marker would still have registered green or even greenish. DCWV CS turned bright yellow in 5 seconds.

"The Neutral 7 is a marker that identifies the acidity of paper, gessoed canvas, stickers and textile products. When a high acid content is present, a bright yellow to yellow orange will appear. Lime green to dark green is ideally acid free and safe for scrapbooking."

I dont know what to think.


 
stefanyb123
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In response to animemama

I'm glad to see you post here, but on the other site I posted this about my thread was deleted!!!!!!!! After the company complained. All it was was a link to the thread here, and no one falsely said anything. I think that's a bunch of ********, are we not supposed to question a large company? Remember, it wasn't this site, sb.com wouldn't do such a thing.


 
beebuzz
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In response to stefanyb123

  • stefanyb123 Said:
I'm glad to see you post here, but on the other site I posted this about my thread was deleted!!!!!!!! After the company complained. All it was was a link to the thread here, and no one falsely said anything. I think that's a bunch of ********, are we not supposed to question a large company? Remember, it wasn't this site, sb.com wouldn't do such a thing.



They deleted the original thread from sb.com too. I guess that's that.


 
CorrieW
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In response to stefanyb123

Is it possible that the batch specifically referenced is not acid free and that the manufacturer slipped something by DCWV? If it can happen with pet food and toys who's to say it couldn't happen with paper. Does DCWV test every batch from the Chinese manufacturers? I know that when dealing with oversea's manufacturers companies have to be very stringent in their testing. I know CM has had problems with some stuff and has had to delay things for this reason. I would feel better about the thread being deleted and the company response if they actually would test the batch that seems to be a problem.


 
animemama
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In response to CorrieW

  • CorrieW Said:
Is it possible that the batch specifically referenced is not acid free and that the manufacturer slipped something by DCWV? If it can happen with pet food and toys who's to say it couldn't happen with paper. Does DCWV test every batch from the Chinese manufacturers? I know that when dealing with oversea's manufacturers companies have to be very stringent in their testing. I know CM has had problems with some stuff and has had to delay things for this reason.


I thought of that too.


 
stefanyb123
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In response to CorrieW

WHat do they have to hide, if its not a problem why hide the questions?


 
CorrieW
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In response to animemama

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Last year when they had the pet food scare the first response was denial. I love DCWV products and especially their card stock, but I want more reassurance than just a blanket statement about there testing standards. When companies sublet there manufacturing they need to be aware that these things can happen.


 
animemama
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In response to animemama

  • Quote:

E(again!)TA: Given this information, I'm comfortable with returning my DCWV neutral cardstock to my scrapbook stash. Which I'm happy about because I love the colors.



Or maybe not, given beebuzz's experience, and the Chinese manufacturer question.


 
JoanE
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  • JoanE on 07-22-08 05:53 PM
In response to animemama

It makes me happy that Jeremy took the time to check in here and let us know that they are ensuring that the products are acid/lignin free. I use these papers all the time and would be unhappy to have to redo pages that I love. Thanks Jeremy and DCWV.


 
_pink_glitter_hearts_
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_pink_glitter_hearts_
In response to Jeremysmith

thanks for posting this


 
cindy312
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In response to stefanyb123

  • stefanyb123 Said:
WHat do they have to hide, if its not a problem why hide the questions?



My question exactly. It seems MORE suspicious to censor it than to just leave the original thread there.


 
Seaexplore
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In response to cindy312

AWESOME customer service! Thanks Jeremy! How many companies will create an account on here just to post a customer service answer? It's a great way to get the word out tho! Nice!


 
moxiegirl23
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In response to animemama

  • animemama Said:
  • CorrieW Said:
Is it possible that the batch specifically referenced is not acid free and that the manufacturer slipped something by DCWV? If it can happen with pet food and toys who's to say it couldn't happen with paper. Does DCWV test every batch from the Chinese manufacturers? I know that when dealing with oversea's manufacturers companies have to be very stringent in their testing. I know CM has had problems with some stuff and has had to delay things for this reason.


I thought of that too.



CM not only has delayed product release, but they've out and out cancelled products after heavily promoting them because the products could not meet CM's quality standards.

I find it a little hinky that two different pens in two different areas (and weren't they different brands of pens, too?) came up with similar results. I would rather have heard "The possibility of a bad batch does exist" from DCWV rather than "It must be the PH pen being unreliable". They lost some of my respect with this post, especially since the other thread was deleted. I'm now less inclined to buy DCWV or encourage people to buy it. I'm even thinking of getting rid of the stacks I have.



Edited by moxiegirl23 on 07-23-08 03:49 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.


 
stefanyb123
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In response to moxiegirl23

  • moxiegirl23 Said:
  • animemama Said:
  • CorrieW Said:
Is it possible that the batch specifically referenced is not acid free and that the manufacturer slipped something by DCWV? If it can happen with pet food and toys who's to say it couldn't happen with paper. Does DCWV test every batch from the Chinese manufacturers? I know that when dealing with oversea's manufacturers companies have to be very stringent in their testing. I know CM has had problems with some stuff and has had to delay things for this reason.


I thought of that too.



CM not only has delayed product release, but they've out and out cancelled products after heavily promoting them because the products could not meet CM's quality standards.

I find it a little hinky that two different pens in two different areas (and weren't they different brands of pens, too?) came up with similar results. I would rather have heard "The possibility of a bad batch does exist" from DCWV rather than "It must be the PH pen being unreliable". They lost some of my respect with this post, especially since the other thread was deleted. I'm now less inclined to buy DCWV or encourage people to buy it. I'm even thinking of getting rid of the stacks I have.






THis can't be said enough.


 
jenyjen3
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In response to stefanyb123

I'm impressed that the company posted a response to this issue but I think it's wrong to start pointed the finger at the pens. I think that we all know that stuff made in china dosen't always follow the appropriate guide lines!!


 
Vivian loves BLING
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In response to jenyjen3

  • jenyjen3 Said:
I'm impressed that the company posted a response to this issue but I think it's wrong to start pointed the finger at the pens. I think that we all know that stuff made in china dosen't always follow the appropriate guide lines!!



Which is what? over 70% of most products we buy? Not just in sb stuff either.

The opening post/response should have been added to the other thread that showed concerns about DCWV papers not being acid-free AND in it's thread like this one. Locking the other thread would have been better received. Many supporters of DCWV on the old thread would have found the new thread without the panic of "why was it mopped?"

The DCWV papers I tested were all acid-free but I'm still not comfortable with the stack that was in question and won't be buying it. I'll also be more suspicious of newer stacks. As much as I love this company's papers, this particular situation was handled badly.

My ph tester pen is very old and I don't completely trust it. I test papers I know are not acid free along with papers that should be acid free. So far my acid free stuff shows as acid free, much to my relief.

I've posted on other threads that no matter how vigilant a scrapper is to keep all contraband items out of their pages, all it takes is one fire, spill or brat to destroy a page or entire album or even all albums.

We don't need the added concern of being able to trust suppliers. Certain one(s) have already proven themselves untrustworthy. I don't believe DCWV falls into the untrustworthy category.


 
CorrieW
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In response to Vivian loves BLING

I am getting more and more suspicious that this is not a case of good customer service but rather a case of good PR for the company. I really like their products but aside from the original post they haven't addressed the issue of this particular batch and how rigorous the testing is. At first I was thinking it wasn't a big deal but I feel like the company is stonewalling us.

When I got in to scrapping my mom gave me all my childhood pictures and they were ruined! It is really disappointing to have my pictures cracked and faded after less than 30 years. I want to make sure when my daughter receives hers that they are in the best shape I could keep them. For this reason I don't use dollar store paper and aside from CM products (I am a hobby consultant) I use reputable brands. I tell this to my small customer base as well. I put too much work in to my albums to have them ruined by cheap paper. I thought DCVW was a reputable brand and I just spent a lot of money on their paper ($50 last week).


 
Frau_Cooney
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In response to CorrieW

  • CorrieW Said:
Is it possible that the batch specifically referenced is not acid free and that the manufacturer slipped something by DCWV?



I would definitely see this as a possibility. The two women who were getting the acidic indication should try a different pen. If it still reads acidic, I would send a sample of it to DCWV for testing. It may be that there is a problem with a specific batch.

DCWV is not an evil company trying to put something over on us, but it is possible there was a mistake that they are not aware of. Based on the proactive response on this message board, I think they would be glad for the opportunity to test the paper themselves.


 
jellyziva
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In response to CorrieW

Maybe the problem is with the particular batch...
Since the other thread was mopped.. would anyone know what was the stack in question, was there a lot number.. when was it purchased or where?

Thanks for the info in advance.

I work in manufacturing and I know how hard it is to keep the quality of the products at mfg sites. The products usually go thru vigorous qualification initially, and I'm sure the end consumer products are sample tested .... so the issues can be with one batch only or a few batches around that timeframe.




 
Amigosa
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In response to jellyziva

I'm still wondering why the old thread got mopped... does anyone know?


 
CorrieW
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In response to Amigosa

I think there is a good possibilty of a problem with the batch. But the company is not admitting to that atleast being a possibilty, rather they are blaming the pens. I don't want to harp on it but it does make you question things. I would rather know that they found a problem and fixed it rather than denying it all together.

If they were to recall this product I would feel better about the rest of their products. Lets be honest are you going to trust the "acid free" label next time you see it? I know I won't, I just bought a acid testing pen. I can't get Bazzil here in Cambridge and DCVW is a nice heavy cardstock which is getting harder to find lately.


 
animemama
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In response to Frau_Cooney

  • Frau_Cooney Said:


The two women who were getting the acidic indication should try a different pen. If it still reads acidic, I would send a sample of it to DCWV for testing. It may be that there is a problem with a specific batch.



We used different brands of pen. That's not a bad idea, to send some in for testing.


 
Vivian loves BLING
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In response to animemama

I believe this is the stack in question. Not all their papers, just this one particular stack. If I remember correctly, someone had a stack for some time and it tested fine. While two others with newer/more recently bought stacks got positive for acid for theirs. They each used a different brand of tester pens.



 
Bxr-Linda
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In response to Vivian loves BLING

I'm also dubious that this is a problem with the PH pens, since different people with different pens tested the product.

I find it more likely (as previously mentioned) that a certain lot [the Neutral Cardstock] of this paper slipped through with an acid level higher than desired. (Not to point any fingers, but... probably the vendor in China.)

I wouldn't write off DCWV altogether, as many people tested the stacks they had and they tested 'good'. As Vivian posted above, it's just the one Neutral Stack in question here.


 
animemama
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In response to Bxr-Linda

I'm one of the people who originally tested the neutral cardstock and got acidic. I use a Lineco testing pen, which is marketed to preservationists at libraries and museums, and I have found it to be very reliable. I've also been scrapping for almost 10 years, and I've made it a point to educate myself about these issues. For the record, I also just now tested my DCWV Far East stack and got acid-free. I believe DCWV is a quality company; but there's clearly a problem with a batch of cardstock, probably because something at the manufacturing site wasn't done correctly, and it would be nice to see them look into it.


 
stefanyb123
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In response to animemama

"DCWV is not an evil company trying to put something over on us, but it is possible there was a mistake that they are not aware of. "

And thats what the majority, if not all, of the other thread's responses said, so that really makes me feel like they are trying to hide something by having it mopped.


 
Kels
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  • Kels on 07-23-08 12:13 PM
In response to Amigosa

  • Amigosa Said:
I'm still wondering why the old thread got mopped... does anyone know?



The original thread was removed at the request of DCWV. It was not an attempt to "censor" or "hide" anything from our members/users. A phone call came in and we simply did as we were asked to do.

Thank you for your patience and understanding!


 
Gelidy Gelato
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In response to Kels

as a Marketing Packaging expert (20+ years in the industry) who works first hand with several printers in China (just counted the list, 10 different printers in China) I would like to pass on my recent experiences.

On several occasions
- printers located in China downgraded our packaging materials specifications and did not notify us.
- printers located in China sub-contracted our printing to completely different companies (not owed by them) and did not notify us. (This is what happened to Mattel.)

Without physically visiting the manufacturer in China and watching them you are never really sure where something was actually made. It is quite common for Chinese companies to move business around between themselves.

I actually "busted" a company who totally presented products as being manufactured by themselves when in fact it had been manufactured elsewhere. (I always include secret coding in the packaging design to indicate the printer.)

It would not surprise me in the least if there were quality issues with the product manufactured in China. In fact I would expect it!


 
Bxr-Linda
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In response to Gelidy Gelato

  • Gelidy Gelato Said:
as a Marketing Packaging expert (20+ years in the industry) who works first hand with several printers in China (just counted the list, 10 different printers in China) I would like to pass on my recent experiences.

...

It would not surprise me in the least if there were quality issues with the product manufactured in China. In fact I would expect it!




Thanks for your first-hand account.

I think from hearing the news of other quality-control issues in China, most of us could assume the problem was something like that.

I wonder if retailers/stores will be willing to return this product (the Neutral Stack)?

Labeling something "acid-free" when it is not, is deceptive (although, in this case, probably unintentional).


 
beebuzz
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In response to Bxr-Linda

DCWV never asked for the lot (CS-004-00001)to even verify that the paper was really acid free. All they said was "Acidic?? Impossible!" That shows how much they care about their customer (IMHO)

I tested my (supposedly faulty)pen on Bazzill , BG, Fancy Pants , Daisy D's , MME and many other big names.. they all turned out fine. I tested it on dollar store papers: these turned out acidic (but at 3 sheets for 1$, i did not shed a tear).



Edited by beebuzz on 07-24-08 12:40 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.


 
beebuzz
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In response to beebuzz

I wonder if DCWV has a certificate of analysis for pH testing for all their products, Lot by lot? To be able to certify that all their products are within range, they must test them... no?


 
ELynn
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  • ELynn on 07-24-08 01:30 PM
In response to animemama

I find it odd the DCWV didn't ask for a sample of the paper. ODDER that the old thread was mopped.

IMO, it's NOT good CS to say, 'it's not possible' should have said, please send us a sample, we'll test it. and sent a new stack to them.

AND since I've learned the paper is outsource, unless YOU PERSONALLY tested or over saw the testing of each batch, no, you can not say, it's not possible.


you can get a bad batch with anything.

I once got a bad bag of salt (for a saltwater fish tank), never even thought of that being possible, killed ALL my inverts but my stars due to the levels it caused. The company sent me a prepaid box for the rest of the bag of salt and sent me a new box of salt as well. of course, i'll NEVER use that brand again. you don't get to kill my inverts and get away with it. (I keep a list of all the evil people...ok one person and one company who have caused harm to my tank)

Lesson learned: Test before using.


 
jellyziva
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In response to ELynn

Thanks for all this info!!!

Now ... you've enabled me to buy a pH testing pen! Seriously, I agree with you... better test it before you use it..... this can happen to any manufacturer.... I care about my heritage LOs especially since the photos are already quite old. I will definitely check the paper on those!

I think the Superstore should carry more pH test pens.. what do you think?
Products Referenced in This Post:


 
jellyziva
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In response to beebuzz

  • beebuzz Said:
DCWV never asked for the lot (CS-004-00001)to even verify that the paper was really acid free. All they said was "Acidic?? Impossible!" That shows how much they care about their customer (IMHO)

I tested my (supposedly faulty)pen on Bazzill , BG, Fancy Pants , Daisy D's , MME and many other big names.. they all turned out fine. I tested it on dollar store papers: these turned out acidic (but at 3 sheets for 1$, i did not shed a tear).





Thanks for sharing this info... I'll check and see if I have any stack from this lot...


 
Amigosa
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In response to jellyziva

  • jelly97 Said:
  • beebuzz Said:
DCWV never asked for the lot (CS-004-00001)to even verify that the paper was really acid free. All they said was "Acidic?? Impossible!" That shows how much they care about their customer (IMHO)

I tested my (supposedly faulty)pen on Bazzill , BG, Fancy Pants , Daisy D's , MME and many other big names.. they all turned out fine. I tested it on dollar store papers: these turned out acidic (but at 3 sheets for 1$, i did not shed a tear).





Thanks for sharing this info... I'll check and see if I have any stack from this lot...



Great.... this is the lot that I have, too! I will pick up one of those pens tomorrow and check mine out. I'm fairly upset about this. Ugh!


 
Castle Scrapper
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In response to Amigosa

I'm really not satisfied by this one blanket response without taking the time to get more information on the lots in question. I sent an email to the company and got no response whatsoever. I'm going to avoid their paper in the future.


 
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