s/o of upset over scraplifting post....

The original post about the person upset about not getting credit for a layout that was copied had me wondering, in general...

do you use sketches?

If you do, do you give credit to whomever/wherever you find the sketches??

And, how do you feel if more than one person uses the same sketch to create a layout???

I do use sketches and if I posted my layouts online I would definitely give credit.

I don't care if someone other than me uses the same sketch....that's what it's there for.

I only really use sketches for sketch challenges or when I do a sketch for Scrap n' Art. In those instances, yes, I give credit because it's part of my supply list.

I also agree that the purpose of sketches is so many people can use them, so I think it would be odd for anyone to think they'd be the only one using a sketch.

When you find sketches here, for example, do you give credit to the person who posted them in the gallery? Sometimes I can't find the originator of the sketches, so I wanted to be sure...I use sketches all the time, but don't post layouts here as often as I used to.


edited to add: I looked a little deeper into some of the sketches here and they are not always created by the person who posted them, many have a reference to where the original sketch came from either on the sketch or in the comments.

Like I said, I don't post my layouts here.....I scrap lots of photos of kids that don't belong to me so I don't feel comfy posting them.

But if I DID post them I would try to give credit to the person who made the sketch. When I save sketches to my idea folder, I save them with the person's name as the file name.

• theboydbunch Said:

Guess I dont understand this part.
Isn't that what sketches are for? For many people to be able to use?

I only add a credit if I LIFT someone's LO. Not from sketches.

I asked my sister who is a sketch artist and digi designer. She said that she prefers if people list her sketch in the supply list or credit where they got the sketch. She isn't going to get angry if ppl don't, but she said it's like a tool people use in their scrapbooking and if they would put a tool in their supply list (like a cuttlebug or paper cutter) then they should consider putting the sketch in there as well.

Like in the digi world, people usually credit where they got kits from and brushes, etc... and a sketch is no different. It's a tool they use to make their layout.

I forgot to add that my sister has designed for companies, using sketches for inspirational blogs, etc. The thing that got her to that popularity was people crediting her sketches and more people being able to see them and then use them through others mentioning her name.

So keep in mind that some of these sketch artists are distributing these free sketches so you can use them (for free) and then hopefully spread the word about how good those sketches are to the rest of your friends. That's how some of these artists get recognized and get DT jobs.

• whateveriwant Said:

Yes, that's what I thought, too, but since many people mentioned they felt being 'lifted' without crediting original artist was not ok...I was wondering how people felt about sketches...because my thought is, for every layout done, there's a sketch out there somewhere for it...because there are sooo many sketches on the 'net...

If I remember where I got the sketch from, I'll credit it. Sometimes, I print one out and intend to use it right away. Then, for whatever reason, I don't get to use it and I find it laying in a folder or envelope at a later date. Unfortunately, I may not have made a note about where I got it, but I still use it. This situation doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I usually try to credit the site where I got the sketch when I can.

It would seem to me that if the sketch was free it would be like a gift and I would credit it.

If I bought a sketchbook or magazine or purchased the sketch, I probably would not credit it. I would feel like it bought the sketch, I have the right to use it. That is what I paid for.

I use sketches. If I print or save the sketch, I also save the source so that I can credit where the sketch came from if I use it.

But that's because I also design sketches for a scraplifting game challenge site for which I'm on the DT, and I know how much work goes into the designing and putting it into a pretty format.

People ought to credit the site where the sketch came from, but too often I see our sketches being used, the challenge being entered, and not even a link back to the challenge site on their blog. That's frustrating, because of course we want the word spread around so more people enter our challenges.

If someone credited me personally for my sketch, that would be amazing and wonderful and all kinds of fabulous!

I seem to have a split personality on this one; but both would agree it's important to site the sketch and artist.

If I share something on my blog, I am way more inclined to site use of a sketch, than to type out the list of other supplies I use. When I start listing the paper and cartridges, etc, I feel pretentious -- like I'm pretending to be one of the Super Artists. I'm not a super artists. I'm a kid having fun with paint and paper and glue.

If I share in my gallery here, I'll list the sketch AND take the time to type out the supplies I've used because I understand that maybe, just maybe, when the moon is in the seventh house, someone will see a product I've used and want it in their stash, too.

As far as a sketch being a tool... I never thought of it like that but OP's sister is right. I'll stop thinking "crutch" and start thinking "tool."

• MommaSaid Said:

I'm also a kid playing with paper, but I list my products used (most of the time) because it seriously irks me when I'm reading someone's blog and really like their layout or project and have NO IDEA what the paper is. Or who makes that flower. And where did they get that bling?!

So, help a girl out and list your products.

I believe that you should give credit for a sketch. I have not been the best at doing it, though, but I'm trying to get much better about it. Someone has put in time and effort to create a sketch and has been kind enough to share it with the public for no cost, so I really feel that I should give them credit for helping me with my layouts!

I'm really awful about doing a layout and then not posting it for several weeks, and I end up forgetting where I found the sketch, if I used one. I'm trying to remember to save the link somewhere so I can find the sketch again when I post my layout. If the sketch is on sb.com, I'm trying to remember to go back and leave a comment with a link to my layout so that the sketch artist can see what was done with their creation....I know I would enjoy doing that if I created and shared a sketch...just like I love seeing lifts done from my layouts, it's cool to see what your work has inspired.

The topic of giving credit for "inspirations" has come up numerous times over the years as we each try to sort out our criteria for what we should or shouldn't credit...
a couple comments

I think if you are copying something (and you know you are copying it) then it would be a nice gesture to give credit. And You should never represent your results as your own (enter a contest, blog, sell on eBay, etc.)

When it comes to "inspirations" it would be a nice gesture to at least give credit to distinctive ideas BUT as our brains are a giant fish bowl fill of numerous influences it's not always possible to identity the exact influence. AND the first time you see an idea may not be the final version that really influences you.

Great Minds Think Alike ... I do believe that people can independently think up the same ideas. I remember a post when a woman said look at my great idea I thought up, making a photo frame out of ribbon. Sadly everyone started bursting her bubble as they posted their examples of ribbon frames made years before she made her claim. It happens...people do come up with the same ideas, titles, layouts, color schemes, etc.

People come to this site to steal ideas and profit from them. This is a fact. If you don't want your spectacular ideas reused then don't post them.

And there are still millions of great ideas still waiting to happen. Everything that can be done in the world of scrapbooking has not been done yet. There are still thousands of materials and techniques still waiting to be incorported into the scrapbooking. Example: we have yet to FULLY embrace the world of velvet, terry cloth, burlap, fleece, to name just a few.

And yea it sucks when you see someone else getting kudos from something you feel you thought up. It happens...if you spend too much energy thinking about it, trying to make it right, it can become toxic and festure to the point you lose sight of why we do this hobby.

Ps oops I think I meant to answer the other thread but I'll leave this response here anyway.

Wow. Thanks for this discussion.

I am new to this and I have never posted a layout yet. I have discovered sketches and love them. So far I have only done a few from ScrapbookEtc. and Page Maps. I find that I use it for inspiration but rarely does it end up a 100% match. Usually because I use lots of pictures on my layouts and adjust them to add more photos. Does that consitute scraplifting?

I have saved to my favorites lots of sketches on this site but haven't yet used one.

At this point I have several layouts to post from the last 2 months and I'm not sure I'd even remember the sources? So in that case would I just put "scraplifted from source not remembered".

Sooooo....when I post something from a sketch (that I remember), what does one say? "scraplifted from so-n-so or from ScrapbookEtc. magazine, etc"?

Good topic.

This is all a lot to think about. I some ways, it is intimidating to me. I make lots of cards using basic designs... borders, punches, ribbons. I don't know if I have ever seen something similar or not... but I PROBABLY have. I can't imagine or be so bold to think that everything I create is brand new and has never been seen before. In some ways, discussions like this scare me off from posting anything because I would not want to have someone think negatively of me. I also do not know the manufacturer of every paper, flower, brad, etc. I usually take them out of the packages and store them in bins and tubs. I couldn't come close to recalling what store or site I even got them from. I am currently creating something for Fiskars but only using their products so there will be no confusion. I buy bulk cardstock and there is no name or color designation. I am sorry that creative people get their feelings hurt when they put so much time and skill into a creation and feel that someone has taken credit for it.

Ladies - don't be intimdated

Unless it's an accurate lift you can just put 'inspired by..' if you can remember where you got an idea from, otherwise there's no harm in saying "This is a scraplift but unfortunately I can't remember the source. Feel free to PM me if it's you!" or something along those lines.

It's very common and unless you're trying to profit from someone else's ideas nothing bad should come of an innocent mistake or ommision.

As has been said, if it's on the internet, it's open to all sorts of abuse but lifting should be considered a compliment IMO, on the whole.

for clarification

The core issue of "scraplifting" is when someone copies (and I mean REALLY copies) someone's ideas and profits from it. Things like copying someone's work (or really unique idea) and entering it in a contest or selling it on Etsy. So it's two part...you copied an idea and didn't give credit (implying you thought it up) and you are profiting from someone else's work.

The scraplifting debates start when it comes to the "level of copying", the source of what you are copying, and if you are profiting from the copying.

"Giving credit" is an unwritten board rule and like all unwritten rules it is open for debate because it is unwritten. It is considered a "nice gesture" to give credit to a scrapbook source that you either copied or were greatly influenced by but it is not a board requirement.

I like to think of it this way...if I am copying an idea, meaning I am really referencing the way one person did it, then I would give that person credit. But if I a "running with an idea, putting my own twist on it" and/or the idea has been used on multiple projects I probably wouldn't reference a single person BUT I would not try to claim the idea as my own.
Example: arranging multiple buttons in a rainbow effect of some sort. Has been done several times in a few different ways already. If I really use one particular layout as a guide I would reference it but if I come up with my own twist I would not reference anyone (but I would not claim or brag about being the creator of color coordinating button arranging).

It makes me so sad that people are so unwilling to share their ideas, they put it in the public domain, then expect to be given credit for the smallest thing.
I assure you, that no one is walking to the bank with hand over fist of money scraplifting.
Not to mention, who has time to police the internet and the world for every scrapbook layout they ever mad to sue for their copy right infringement they claim.

J

• WPIM Said:

I understand what you are saying...for most of us "we should be so lucky" that someone sees our ideas and uses them BUT there really is a dog-eat-dog cut throat scrapbooking competition out there. Companies, design teams, magazines are all trying to come up with new things that will make money. And sometimes the little guy thinks the idea up and someone else rips off the idea and makes the money.

This topic scraplifting starts to get heated because sometimes ideas get stolen and then sold on eBay, etsy, show up on a sponsored blog, show up in a magazine or book. If you worked really hard on something and maybe you want to profit from your hard work...you can see why someone gets mad.

• Quote:

Well, again, my point is, if you don't want to share ideas with others, then don't put your work out there for the world to see.
If the other person is selling their items having "inspired by" on any posting isn't going to prevent the sale or sway the buyer to not purchase.
It just makes me so sad in mankind that someone isn't willing to share ideas. It isn't like cutting paper is going to save the world or be put on our headstones when we die.

• WPIM Said:

That's all fine and dandy unless those ideas are how you make your living.

In an ideal world, you're right, we'd all happily share and no one would ever 'steal' an idea then claim it as their own for profit....but sadly that's not how things are.

• WPIM Said:

I think you're missing the point that's been brought up. Everyone shares ideas...that's how creativity works. It's the same way with writing, painting, and any other creative endeavor.

HOWEVER, for people who create, it's just right that they get the kudos for being the person who did it. Would you make your same argument to the author who wrote a book and then another more famous author stole it and passed it off as theirs? How about an amateur who created a beautiful piece of art only to have it copied by another who gets all the glory for being the creative mind behind it?
"Sorry that you took the time to write this creative and awesome book...but someone beat you to the punch and got it published before you did..."

If you look at copyright laws, you will see that once something is put into a fixed, tangible form, it is lawfully a creative property of the person who made it. That person owns the copyright. But...to get into a lawsuit over something like a scrapbooking page is too frivolous for most people and not something people have the time for.

Of course we should share ideas...if you look around, that's what you see going on 24/7 here. We should NOT steal another's original idea and pass it off as our own to make money or get prestige. That's just rude and arrogant and frankly it is what copyright laws are there for.

I suppose you can disagree if you like, but copyright is a big deal to some people. It's not true legally that if you share something with someone they have the right to steal it and pass it off as theirs.

Just so people don't think I'm making it all up

What is copyright?

Copyright gives the creator of an original work the right to protect his or her work from unauthorized use by others. A copyrighted work may not be duplicated, distributed or performed without the consent of the owner. Copyright was included in the law to provide incentive to authors to create original works by granting them an essential monopoly over their work.

What is protected by copyright?

Copyright protects any original work of authorship that is in tangible form, regardless of whether or not a notice of copyright exists on the work. Original expressions may include literature, musical works, paintings, sculpture, audiovisual works, sound recordings, or architectural works. Tangible form may include anything written on paper, saved to disk(web pages, graphics on web, electronic mail messages or computer programs), or saved on any audio/video device. There are, however, several fundamental items that are not eligible for copyright protection: ideas, facts, titles, names, procedures, and works not fixed in tangible form. Copyright only protects the form in which these ideas or facts are expressed, not the ideas or facts themselves.

When does a work become protected?

The original expression becomes protected by copyright as soon as it is in tangible form. So, once an original expression exists in a tangible form, that expression is protected by copyright.

How long does copyright protection last?

The length of protection varies depending on when the item in question was created (the laws changed in 1978). If the expression was created:

Before 1978: The expression is protected for 75 years, beginning on the date of publication.
After 1978: The expression is protected until 50 years after the death of the owner (if owned by an individual), or 75 years from the date it was published (if owned by an institution).
Who owns the copyright?

The creator owns the copyright unless he or she creates the work for someone else (possibly the institution they work for). In the case of creating for someone else (a principal), the principal owns the copyright. This situation is also known as "work for hire." For example, as part of my employment at the University of Colorado, I am creating this HTML page of question and answers on copyright issues. The copyright to this page belongs to the University of Colorado, unless otherwise agreed to by myself and the University.

Is a registered copyright necessary for me? Should I register?

As we already know, copyright protection is automatically attached to your original work, so what are the advantages of registering a work? There are really only two reasons to register:

You must be registered before an infringement suit may be filed.
You must be registered within three months of the creation of the work in order to collect statutory damages and attorney's fees in a law suit. Otherwise, the law will only allow the collection of actual damages, which will generally be less than statutory damages.

Just a gentle reminder. When you sign up to SB.com you agree to the rules. One is the Golden Rule: treat others as you want to be treated AND another is "* Content uploaded to Scrapbook.com by you may only be of your creation."

If you want to stay at SB.com then say who you lifted if you know, if not then say you were inspired by someone but can't remember who it was. If its unintentional then there is little you can do about it. I agree that it happens all the time. So MANY things stick in our brains but maybe not names.

I guess I will have to take my chances then, I am sure a judge will be happy to look at all my photos and stories I have written through the years.

I will have to remember who designed the papers in the 1st place to offer the real credit and of course my mother for always taking wonderful photos of me as a child and got me interested in photography in the 1st place.

• rockmom Said:

Scraplifted or not, the uploaded photo is our own creations. Even if it is scraplifted, I would be the one that created the one that I uploaded and I am willing to bet most of us would tweak it to match our own still so it would not be 100% the same in any matter.

I am not saying that if you remember that you should give them credit, but we all see things everyday that give us our inspiration and it is very hard to remember when and where we got the inspiration.

• Quote:

If you wanted us to put that then we more than likely would have to put it on every photo we uploaded. I mean I get inspiration in the car on my drive to an from places, do you want me to say this card was inspired by a car with a wreath on it?... I mean I don't understand what you want everyone to do.

Well IF you want to stay here, you better!

Sorry, I couldn't go much longer without being a smart-a.

I have not been productive today.

K

• designguyKORY Said:

I don't believe anyone has been kicked off of sb.com because they didn't give credit correctly to an original idea in the gallery...there have been a lot worse things I have seen here than have been "let slide"

;-)

This topic always gets so heated! It reminds me of politics or religion.
It is very common sense until someone doesn't agree and then it quickly degenerates into unlikely what-ifs.
If you take direct inspiration from a sketch, try and give credit to the person who made the sketch. It's hard work making a sketch and it takes about 47 to 87 seconds, depending on how slow you type, to give credit of where you saw the sketch.

it really wasn't meant to cause drama nor be a heated question...I was curious if sketches were considered in the same group as scraplifting (where people expect others to give credit) ? I haven't found anything in this thread rude to others, just information sharing.

Not brain surgery, give credit to where credit is due. If you want credit, make your own. I have always given credit to whomever it was that inspired me. Doesn't take alot of time and avoids drama like this

LOL no I don't want you to put anything. I was quoting the written sb.com rules. Interpret them as you like and do with them as you will. I have seen folks removed from the site for this very thing.

• Scrap Princess72010 Said:

You need to take your arguement to SB.com and the powers that be.

These are the rules - whether you agree/like them or not.

• kelseymel Said:

Well, I like you. You're cute. Okay.

• justowen Said:

Highlighted in purple above.... I do the same thing! Or, I got into a bad habit of starting a LO, based on a sketch; didn't print out the sketch; didn't yet print out the photos; get sick and abandon the LO.... only to rediscover a fully pretty or half pretty page in with my unused paper and wonder what to do with it now....

Just to point out....

Mondays are not my favorite day. I tend towards cranky.

People getting their panties in a twist make me cranky. This is never good.

Anyone who wishes to discuss/argue the finer points of board rules is perfectly free to PM me. You probably won't "win"....but I'm happy to clarify at any point in time.

I just think it's a matter of manners. It's proper etiquette (from what I've been taught) to give credit where credit is due. If I'm using a sketch, I always put the source that I got it from in my description when uploading. If I'm scraplifting someone, I also source the original layout in my description. I usually put "inspired by" because it's rare that I copy something product-for-product and placement-for-placement. I'm not even sure if that's possible in real life. Anyhow - if I ever get lucky enough to have someone lift my work, I'd want credit, so I always give others credit.

from MY point of view,,,,,

I'd like to know who you copied,,,,,or what sketch you used,,,,

scrap lifting is a SKILL,,,,following a sketch is a SKILL,,,,,

gee whiz, tell us you copied so we can tell you what a fantabulous job you did COPYING!

Well, Here is how I understand it... We all know when we create something looking almost exactly like another. If its something you couldnt have done at all without looking hard at another's work-- then you should give the artist credit. If someone has copied my work--- better let me know immediately because I would be thrilled and it would make my day!! Its quite a compliment! But, I am a beginner and haven't patented any scrapbook designs.LOL!

Doesnt describe anyone in my house or entire family! But, its a nice model to try and follow. Best of Intentions are worth a lot!

• Smashley Said:

This "proper etiquette" idea seems to always catch people by surprise especially newcomers. For a hobby that "has no rules" there sure seems to be some rules.

If we/scrapbook.com feels so strongly about this, they could add a "field" to the description to specifically list references/credits/infuen ces.

That's a good point, Gelidy...

I like that idea too - would be helpful.